Copyninja Street FD - GT3 Build
- Thread starter Copyninja
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- Feb 18, 2018
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Yeah, man, I pulled those numbers straight from the RX7 Draggy leaderboard. Figured it'd be more useful than just bragging rights, right?
You gotta have serious boost to hit those times, no matter the platform. Stock cars in the mid-4s for the 100-200 are a McLaren 720s or Ferrari SF90 to name a couple. Built R8s or GT-Rs are running forged motors, built transmissions, and massive turbos cranking out at least 2 bar of boost. It's no joke, but like they say, if Omar from Raceonly can do it in a street FD, then so can the rest of us. We just gotta figure out what makes his setup reliable and consistent. My take away from his money no object build is he's using the perfect turbo to compliment his engine breathing with max efficiency.
I reached out to Elliott and the short mani wont work and he's not sure if their long runner EWG manifold will clear a G45 turbo. Might have to take a risk, though, because it's the only exhaust mani that tapers and will probably give me the best boost response with a big turbo.
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As if Omar's 100-200 time wasn't already impressive at 3.96s, the man has stepped it up even further.
100-200 - 3.77s
200-250 - 3.36s (The top end is ridiculous, getting closer to 2s range)
Since this run was on a drag strip, it won't qualify for the 13B RX7 Leaderboard. Still, it's definitely worth sharing with the community, especially considering any modern car in this power range is pushing 1000+whp.
This run gives me even more confidence that cracking into the mid-4s is absolutely achievable with the right supporting mods on a 13B Streetport.
100-200 - 3.77s
200-250 - 3.36s (The top end is ridiculous, getting closer to 2s range)
Since this run was on a drag strip, it won't qualify for the 13B RX7 Leaderboard. Still, it's definitely worth sharing with the community, especially considering any modern car in this power range is pushing 1000+whp.
This run gives me even more confidence that cracking into the mid-4s is absolutely achievable with the right supporting mods on a 13B Streetport.
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Shame you can't borrow a 3d scanner and get hold of turbo scans !Yeah, man, I pulled those numbers straight from the RX7 Draggy leaderboard. Figured it'd be more useful than just bragging rights, right?
You gotta have serious boost to hit those times, no matter the platform. Stock cars in the mid-4s for the 100-200 are a McLaren 720s or Ferrari SF90 to name a couple. Built R8s or GT-Rs are running forged motors, built transmissions, and massive turbos cranking out at least 2 bar of boost. It's no joke, but like they say, if Omar from Raceonly can do it in a street FD, then so can the rest of us. We just gotta figure out what makes his setup reliable and consistent. My take away from his money no object build is he's using the perfect turbo to compliment his engine breathing with max efficiency.
I reached out to Elliott and the short mani wont work and he's not sure if their long runner EWG manifold will clear a G45 turbo. Might have to take a risk, though, because it's the only exhaust mani that tapers and will probably give me the best boost response with a big turbo.
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- Feb 18, 2018
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- 666
Shame indeed!!
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2018
- Messages
- 666
Year End Update
Decided to tick a wishlist item and booked a track day at the legendary and scenic Anglesey Circuit in Wales.
Met up with a friend/s that races in the MX5 NC Series who knows the track well.
Some pics on the driveway at the Air Bnb at Anglesey.
The drive to Anglesey Curcuit is beautiful.
The track is sensational and the views are breath taking.
Because an FD is involved something had to go awry. I lost 3rd gear and the FD had to be recovered to Tims at RX Motors to get a new gearbox.
In Fairness, my box did a splendid job - over 320 100-200km/h runs in mexico and numerous track days. This was bound to happen at some point.
Tim sent me some photos of 3rd gear. It was time to retire this gearbox.
We are lucky to have such a great community as I was able to source a low mileage box from the RX7 Tribe group in a few days. This box comes from an oe twin turbo FD.
Looking healthy!!
Xmas Presents from me to myself - delivered by Santa.
Enter G40-900 1.19 T4
This pretty much wraps up the updates for this year.
Tim is working on upgrading the fuel system. For the time being i've replaced the gearbox with a low mileage oem box.
I will at some point next year switch turbos from my G35 1050 vband 1.21ar to the G40 900 1.19 T4 and see how it does.
Can a G40 900 truly run low 5s 100-200km/h? lets find out next year.
Decided to tick a wishlist item and booked a track day at the legendary and scenic Anglesey Circuit in Wales.
Met up with a friend/s that races in the MX5 NC Series who knows the track well.
Some pics on the driveway at the Air Bnb at Anglesey.
The drive to Anglesey Curcuit is beautiful.
The track is sensational and the views are breath taking.
Because an FD is involved something had to go awry. I lost 3rd gear and the FD had to be recovered to Tims at RX Motors to get a new gearbox.
In Fairness, my box did a splendid job - over 320 100-200km/h runs in mexico and numerous track days. This was bound to happen at some point.
Tim sent me some photos of 3rd gear. It was time to retire this gearbox.
We are lucky to have such a great community as I was able to source a low mileage box from the RX7 Tribe group in a few days. This box comes from an oe twin turbo FD.
Looking healthy!!
Xmas Presents from me to myself - delivered by Santa.
Enter G40-900 1.19 T4
This pretty much wraps up the updates for this year.
Tim is working on upgrading the fuel system. For the time being i've replaced the gearbox with a low mileage oem box.
I will at some point next year switch turbos from my G35 1050 vband 1.21ar to the G40 900 1.19 T4 and see how it does.
Can a G40 900 truly run low 5s 100-200km/h? lets find out next year.
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- Feb 18, 2018
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- 666
While the FD is under the knife and getting some well deserved rest, upgrades and maintenance.
I've been daily driving my E92 M3 for the past couple months. Its a privilege and pleasure to be able to do this because the V8 is a thirsty animal but not enough to scare off Rotary owners.
I also put a stage 2 Package on the M3 to get it to drive how it should have done from the factory.
Stage 2 Map
2 Pipe Mod - to get more V8 noises
Decat Pipes to replace the OEM Cats
Daily driving the M3 has not been without cost - its picked up a few battle scars from the street.
OEM 100-200km/h
Stage 2 - A solid 1.18s improvement in acceleration for a NA machine. I'll take that. Its no 100-200 monster but its a lot of fun for street use. I really love this generation of the M3 and imo the absolute bestever M3.
Thats it for this year folks. Have a Great New Years!!
I've been daily driving my E92 M3 for the past couple months. Its a privilege and pleasure to be able to do this because the V8 is a thirsty animal but not enough to scare off Rotary owners.
I also put a stage 2 Package on the M3 to get it to drive how it should have done from the factory.
Stage 2 Map
2 Pipe Mod - to get more V8 noises
Decat Pipes to replace the OEM Cats
Daily driving the M3 has not been without cost - its picked up a few battle scars from the street.
OEM 100-200km/h
Stage 2 - A solid 1.18s improvement in acceleration for a NA machine. I'll take that. Its no 100-200 monster but its a lot of fun for street use. I really love this generation of the M3 and imo the absolute bestever M3.
Thats it for this year folks. Have a Great New Years!!
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- Feb 18, 2018
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- 666
It’s been nearly 7 months since I last saw or drove the FD and now we’re back, and the fun begins! Until I break something!
The FD's has been ready since early February, but I only managed to pick it up a few days ago. Definitely worth the wait, and initial testing has been promising.
What’s new?
These are all the photos Tim took during the fuel system build. The setup includes:
I didn’t waste any time and jumped straight into tuning. Since there’s a dyno near Tim’s shop, it made sense to book it and start dialing in the injectors with a solid base tune to 14psi boost. I was honestly worried about controlling such large injectors, but everything went surprisingly smoothly.
And yep, that’s Tim in the background looking like the mad scientist from Back to the Future!
Laptop always close when tuning the FD RX-7 and a fire extinguisher or two on standby, just in case things get a little too spicy! After all, we are testing a brand-new fuel system!
Strapped in and ready for action!
The first hurdle was getting a clean RPM signal on the dyno. Normally, it’s a quick job, just tap into the FD’s leading or trailing coil lead—but after 15 minutes with no luck, we found the issue: a faulty signal cable. Once the dyno operator swapped it out for a new one, we were good to go. Dyno day was almost over before it even started!
It took a couple of hours to dial in the injectors, idle, and cruise tune, then bring it up to 14psi as a solid starting point. Just as things were getting interesting, we ran out of dyno time. With another hour, I would've pushed it to 26–30psi. The dyno chart shows a solid powerband from 4400rpm to 8000rpm, though ideally, I would've liked to push the redline to 8500rpm to check volumetric efficiency. The tune isn't fully optimized yet, so I’ll refine it on the road and do a few 100-200km/h runs to compare how this 14psi stacks up against previous 14psi runs. Ideally, I want the times to be consistent, ensuring similar 100-200 times under equal conditions.
The ATS Carbon 1.5-way LSD is a beast under power, but like any mechanical LSD, it adds some drama with clunks and clatters during low-speed turns and reversing. It’s got that extra excitement and theater, making it a great upgrade especially since I'm aiming for 2bar boost soon!
Picked up the FD with some new bits and bobs, went to dyno, tuned it, and drove home - mission successful!
The FD's has been ready since early February, but I only managed to pick it up a few days ago. Definitely worth the wait, and initial testing has been promising.
What’s new?
- Fuel system – Fully upgraded with AN8 lines and ready for all the boost.
- Drivetrain – ATS Carbon 1.5-way LSD paired with a 4.44 final drive from an RX-8.
- Transmission – Swapped in an OEM low mileage 5-speed manual after the original box failed on track.
These are all the photos Tim took during the fuel system build. The setup includes:
- 2x 1500cc primary ASNU injectors
- 4x 2200cc secondary Bosch injectors
- AN-8 PTFE E85-compatible lines throughout
- 2x Walbro 450 fuel pumps
- Speeding fuel filter rated for 1500hp (well above my target, so plenty of headroom)
I didn’t waste any time and jumped straight into tuning. Since there’s a dyno near Tim’s shop, it made sense to book it and start dialing in the injectors with a solid base tune to 14psi boost. I was honestly worried about controlling such large injectors, but everything went surprisingly smoothly.
And yep, that’s Tim in the background looking like the mad scientist from Back to the Future!
Laptop always close when tuning the FD RX-7 and a fire extinguisher or two on standby, just in case things get a little too spicy! After all, we are testing a brand-new fuel system!
Strapped in and ready for action!
The first hurdle was getting a clean RPM signal on the dyno. Normally, it’s a quick job, just tap into the FD’s leading or trailing coil lead—but after 15 minutes with no luck, we found the issue: a faulty signal cable. Once the dyno operator swapped it out for a new one, we were good to go. Dyno day was almost over before it even started!
It took a couple of hours to dial in the injectors, idle, and cruise tune, then bring it up to 14psi as a solid starting point. Just as things were getting interesting, we ran out of dyno time. With another hour, I would've pushed it to 26–30psi. The dyno chart shows a solid powerband from 4400rpm to 8000rpm, though ideally, I would've liked to push the redline to 8500rpm to check volumetric efficiency. The tune isn't fully optimized yet, so I’ll refine it on the road and do a few 100-200km/h runs to compare how this 14psi stacks up against previous 14psi runs. Ideally, I want the times to be consistent, ensuring similar 100-200 times under equal conditions.
The ATS Carbon 1.5-way LSD is a beast under power, but like any mechanical LSD, it adds some drama with clunks and clatters during low-speed turns and reversing. It’s got that extra excitement and theater, making it a great upgrade especially since I'm aiming for 2bar boost soon!
Picked up the FD with some new bits and bobs, went to dyno, tuned it, and drove home - mission successful!
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2018
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- 666
Injector duty cycle is now down to 35%, nearly half of what it was with the previous fuel system so there's plenty of headroom to safely raise boost to 2 bar (the current limit of my 3bar MAP sensor).
The new tune is running 14 psi, making 410 hp and 310 lb-ft. The dyno operator claims that's wheel horsepower, but I suspect it's not the case. I'll confirm soon with a Dragy 100–200 km/h run.
The new 500hp 2025 Porsche GT3 manual, weighing around 1,550 kg with driver and equipped with a highly efficient engine and gearbox, does 100–200 km/h in the low 7s. It's the only manual to lap the Nürburgring in under 7 minutes.
An FD RX-7 with similar power and ~200 kg less weight should manage 100–200 km/h in the mid-6s. I'll tune my low-boost setup to a true 500 hp for real-world use at 6.5s range, and if all goes well, step it up to 29 psi.
The new tune is running 14 psi, making 410 hp and 310 lb-ft. The dyno operator claims that's wheel horsepower, but I suspect it's not the case. I'll confirm soon with a Dragy 100–200 km/h run.
The new 500hp 2025 Porsche GT3 manual, weighing around 1,550 kg with driver and equipped with a highly efficient engine and gearbox, does 100–200 km/h in the low 7s. It's the only manual to lap the Nürburgring in under 7 minutes.
An FD RX-7 with similar power and ~200 kg less weight should manage 100–200 km/h in the mid-6s. I'll tune my low-boost setup to a true 500 hp for real-world use at 6.5s range, and if all goes well, step it up to 29 psi.
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- Feb 18, 2018
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A few days after dyno day, I checked the engine to see how much oil it had consumed and noticed a significant oil leak around the oil top-up tank and dipstick area. After a quick inspection, I found the line leading to the external oil catch can had split.
Fixed!!!
This could have ended very badly!
I attempted some 100–200 km/h pulls to establish a baseline for performance and to make sure everything was functioning correctly. Right away, I noticed the car felt sluggish, and the logs confirmed a boost leak. Boost was building very slowly, response was laggy, and when it did build, it only reached around 11–12 psi. As a result, the 100–200 km/h times were poor, around 9.5 seconds. I began searching for the cause of the leak and quickly found the issue.
The hose was completely split through, causing a major boost leak.
Fixed!!!
While I was there, I decided to replace the spark plugs as well. As expected, the engine is running rich. The plugs installed are NGK 10s. The carbon buildup suggests rich running conditions. The color is very dark (dry black), which points toward excessive fuel (rich mixture) rather than oil fouling (which often looks wetter or shinier). Overall happy and what I expected to see.
Using Denso 34 which are the same as NGK 11s on the trailing side. The color (brownish-black) suggests rich combustion but no oil fouling it’s mostly dry soot. I dont see signs of overheating (no white porcelain, no melted electrodes), and no major physical damage.
My plug read interpretation -
The FD is back together after the repairs. To ensure safety, I've slightly increased the fuel mixture. This precaution was taken because the past boost leak could have forced the turbo to work harder to maintain pressure. With the leak sealed, there's a risk the turbo might now produce excessive boost (overboost), and the added fuel helps protect the engine in that scenario.
To clear my mind and reset, I took a short break from working on the FD and went for a drive in my M3. My friend came along too. I admit these S65 NA V8s are absolute screamers!
I'm 13B for life, but some V8 fun on the side is nice (as long as it's not in an FD, haha!). A main chick and side chick seems acceptable in this scenario!
The FD is now fueled and ready for some 100-200km/h acceleration runs. It's currently on a very conservative tune, running at 14psi of boost, which I estimate puts it around the low 400hp mark which was also the same per the dyno around 410hp. My goal for these pulls is to achieve a time in the low 8-second range. If it hits that target, it will be a great sign of strong engine health and confirm that the boost leaks have been successfully fixed.
Fixed!!!
This could have ended very badly!
I attempted some 100–200 km/h pulls to establish a baseline for performance and to make sure everything was functioning correctly. Right away, I noticed the car felt sluggish, and the logs confirmed a boost leak. Boost was building very slowly, response was laggy, and when it did build, it only reached around 11–12 psi. As a result, the 100–200 km/h times were poor, around 9.5 seconds. I began searching for the cause of the leak and quickly found the issue.
The hose was completely split through, causing a major boost leak.
Fixed!!!
While I was there, I decided to replace the spark plugs as well. As expected, the engine is running rich. The plugs installed are NGK 10s. The carbon buildup suggests rich running conditions. The color is very dark (dry black), which points toward excessive fuel (rich mixture) rather than oil fouling (which often looks wetter or shinier). Overall happy and what I expected to see.
Using Denso 34 which are the same as NGK 11s on the trailing side. The color (brownish-black) suggests rich combustion but no oil fouling it’s mostly dry soot. I dont see signs of overheating (no white porcelain, no melted electrodes), and no major physical damage.
My plug read interpretation -
- The engine is running rich, but the trailing plugs are less affected than the leading plugs, which is typical in a rotary because the leading plugs fire first and are responsible for primary combustion, trailing plugs assist later in the cycle.
- The TR plug is a bit cleaner than TF, suggesting slight variation in AFR's between front and rear rotor behavior, again not unusual, but worth noting. So I may need to tweak rear rotor balance although i think this may not be necessary as the Leading front and rear plugs look even.
The FD is back together after the repairs. To ensure safety, I've slightly increased the fuel mixture. This precaution was taken because the past boost leak could have forced the turbo to work harder to maintain pressure. With the leak sealed, there's a risk the turbo might now produce excessive boost (overboost), and the added fuel helps protect the engine in that scenario.
To clear my mind and reset, I took a short break from working on the FD and went for a drive in my M3. My friend came along too. I admit these S65 NA V8s are absolute screamers!
I'm 13B for life, but some V8 fun on the side is nice (as long as it's not in an FD, haha!). A main chick and side chick seems acceptable in this scenario!
The FD is now fueled and ready for some 100-200km/h acceleration runs. It's currently on a very conservative tune, running at 14psi of boost, which I estimate puts it around the low 400hp mark which was also the same per the dyno around 410hp. My goal for these pulls is to achieve a time in the low 8-second range. If it hits that target, it will be a great sign of strong engine health and confirm that the boost leaks have been successfully fixed.
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2018
- Messages
- 666
Changing fuel injectors on my setup required a full retune of the fuel map; simply adjusting deadtimes and pulsewidths wasn't sufficient. I had to start from scratch to properly calibrate the new 4x Bosch 2200cc secondaries and their staging with the 2x Asnu 1500cc primaries.
As it had been nearly 7 months since my last run, it took a few runs to get accustomed to their intensity again. I'd forgotten just how "scary" they can be! However, after those initial runs, my confidence in the FD returned. My first recorded run for the 100-200 km/h test resulted in a time of 8.4 seconds.
The results from the first run revealed two main issues
1. A slow gear shift ("granny shift")
2. Excessively rich acceleration fueling between shifts. While not immediately obvious during the run, the Draggy report showed a lack of responsiveness and power. Checking the data logs confirmed the overly rich fueling was the cause of this "laziness."
The second run improved significantly, clocking in at 8.07 seconds, which is a step in the right direction.
However, there's still room for major improvement, particularly in the fuel enrichment settings for quicker response during gear changes and lower IDC between these changes. I believe there's another 0.3 to 0.4 seconds of performance to be gained by refining the transient fueling and improving my shifting speed, my muscle memory hasn't kicked in yet! Additionally, further overall tune optimization could potentially shave off another 0.1 to 0.2 seconds.
This concludes the initial testing session for the new fuel system. As is typical with any new build, I encountered a few minor "teething issues," but overall, it's been a solid start and heading in the right direction.
My plan now is to gain full confidence in the fuel system's reliability at base 14 to 16 psi boost levels. Once I have a thorough understanding of how the new fueling setup behaves consistently, I'll step up to the higher boost levels of 28-29 psi.
As it had been nearly 7 months since my last run, it took a few runs to get accustomed to their intensity again. I'd forgotten just how "scary" they can be! However, after those initial runs, my confidence in the FD returned. My first recorded run for the 100-200 km/h test resulted in a time of 8.4 seconds.
The results from the first run revealed two main issues
1. A slow gear shift ("granny shift")
2. Excessively rich acceleration fueling between shifts. While not immediately obvious during the run, the Draggy report showed a lack of responsiveness and power. Checking the data logs confirmed the overly rich fueling was the cause of this "laziness."
The second run improved significantly, clocking in at 8.07 seconds, which is a step in the right direction.
However, there's still room for major improvement, particularly in the fuel enrichment settings for quicker response during gear changes and lower IDC between these changes. I believe there's another 0.3 to 0.4 seconds of performance to be gained by refining the transient fueling and improving my shifting speed, my muscle memory hasn't kicked in yet! Additionally, further overall tune optimization could potentially shave off another 0.1 to 0.2 seconds.
This concludes the initial testing session for the new fuel system. As is typical with any new build, I encountered a few minor "teething issues," but overall, it's been a solid start and heading in the right direction.
My plan now is to gain full confidence in the fuel system's reliability at base 14 to 16 psi boost levels. Once I have a thorough understanding of how the new fueling setup behaves consistently, I'll step up to the higher boost levels of 28-29 psi.
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2018
- Messages
- 666
Things have gotten pretty eventful since my last post. I recently welcomed my first child, who now takes up all of my time and attention. While I’ve been fully occupied with dad duties, a mate of mine came over to give both the M3 and the RX-7 a maintenance wash. I didn’t get a chance to take any photos myself, but Ben was kind enough to snap a few and send them over.
The FD’s paintwork isn’t flawless, but it proudly wears the battle scars from countless track days and the relentless acceleration it was built to handle. One day, I’d love to give it a fresh respray in OEM Montego Blue with an OEM+ twist by adding a more pronounced emerald green color that pops alive in the sunlight, accented by a subtle gold fleck in the paint that can only truly be appreciated in person. Then go back to the OEM monty blue when the sun goes away.
I noticed my battery voltage had dropped to 13.7 volts, whereas it usually stays around 14.2 volts. To find the cause, I started with the obvious: the battery terminals. I found that they weren’t clamping tightly and had deteriorated over time, preventing a solid connection. I replaced them with heavy-duty terminals that fit extremely tight on the battery posts, with no play at all, yet are still easy to remove if needed. After making this change, my battery voltage is now back up to 14.2 volts.
I’ve been finding it tough to focus on 100–200 tuning and increasing boost lately. Whenever I do get some free time, I’m usually too tired to properly concentrate, and that’s definitely not the right mindset for chasing performance. I’ll get there in a few weeks once the newborn settles into more of a routine.
The FD’s paintwork isn’t flawless, but it proudly wears the battle scars from countless track days and the relentless acceleration it was built to handle. One day, I’d love to give it a fresh respray in OEM Montego Blue with an OEM+ twist by adding a more pronounced emerald green color that pops alive in the sunlight, accented by a subtle gold fleck in the paint that can only truly be appreciated in person. Then go back to the OEM monty blue when the sun goes away.
I noticed my battery voltage had dropped to 13.7 volts, whereas it usually stays around 14.2 volts. To find the cause, I started with the obvious: the battery terminals. I found that they weren’t clamping tightly and had deteriorated over time, preventing a solid connection. I replaced them with heavy-duty terminals that fit extremely tight on the battery posts, with no play at all, yet are still easy to remove if needed. After making this change, my battery voltage is now back up to 14.2 volts.
I’ve been finding it tough to focus on 100–200 tuning and increasing boost lately. Whenever I do get some free time, I’m usually too tired to properly concentrate, and that’s definitely not the right mindset for chasing performance. I’ll get there in a few weeks once the newborn settles into more of a routine.
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- Feb 18, 2018
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I took the FD out for a quick 20-minute session, and it felt significantly better. The car is finally starting to feel alive, especially under load.
After reviewing the logs, I've identified a few key areas to focus on:
Overall, things are looking very promising and moving in the right direction. Once low boost is fully dialed in to the high 6 to low 7s range, scaling up to 26–29 psi should be much more straightforward and more importantly enjoyable.
After reviewing the logs, I've identified a few key areas to focus on:
- Boost Delivery & Traction: With the ATS 1.5-way carbon diff providing noticeably more traction. I will start dialing in the boost earlier. The priority will be to bring boost in sooner while keeping the delivery smooth and linear to maintain control for street use.
- Transient Fueling (Unexpected Insight): During the pull, I unintentionally lifted off the throttle in 4th gear and then got back on the power, which cost me about 0.2 seconds. Surprisingly, this revealed a strong point: the transient fueling in this region felt excellent. So there’s minimal adjustment needed here and this area is nearly dialed.
- 3rd to 4th Gear Acceleration Fueling: I’ll continue refining the accel fueling transition from 3rd to 4th gear. The goal is to keep the primary injector duty cycle below 50% while also regaining some turbo response and snappiness. This should help both drivability, efficiency and overall transient response between gear changes in general.
Overall, things are looking very promising and moving in the right direction. Once low boost is fully dialed in to the high 6 to low 7s range, scaling up to 26–29 psi should be much more straightforward and more importantly enjoyable.
a.tapos
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Can get mine to idle as lean as 14 if i really want. Partly due to the ASNU injector data being so good.
That sounds about right.
a.tapos
Active member
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Yeah,you had no chance of that with PFC as the minimum opening time was too high,even with loads of lag,which then screwed the map.
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The PFC was great back in the '90s when it was released, but in 2025, there are far better ECU options available. It's outdated and belongs in the bin at this point.
